I want my crack-filled life back now, please.

[holdouttrout]

This is, sadly, serious.



I had a talk with a friend last night about Britney Spears.

The thing is--Britney Spears is a sort of laughingstock. (I can see you're all shocked and surprised). My friend was very harsh in her criticism of Spears--in her manner of dress, her music, her lifestyle...everything. She knows more about Spears' current tabloid run than I do--it makes me extremely uncomfortable to read things about people's private lives, especially at the level of the celebrity mags, because I have no way of parsing the truth from them.

So, granted, some of the things she was saying might have been true. If I'm to believe knowledgeable people about the subject, the magazines I despise the second-most (worst are the ones where all is smooth airbrushing, faux glamour, and polished prose), are in fact damnably accurate, due to potential litigation.

However, I don't believe that we can judge people themselves--especially not based on what publishers with vested interests in the subject try to tell us.

So I stopped her--rather abruptly--and said just that. And we changed the subject.

But this got me to thinking: this isn't the first time I've spoken up and asked people to change their conversation based on what I find offensive. Online, I just leave the conversation. I know it's counter-productive to try to protest--people just protest back. Loudly.

But in real life, I've been met with surprisingly good rates of success. The times that I can remember doing this have been times when I felt that just leaving wasn't an option. Most times, I've been in my own apartment. Many times, I've confronted people I didn't know particularly well, as well as people I knew very well.

So--would I annoy you? What would you do if you felt a conversation was damaging, hurtful, or wrong? I'm not talking about disagreeing with someone's viewpoints, exactly--more with the entire conversation, be that the tone of the comments, or the assumptions therein.

Because to me, there's a difference between saying, "I really hate the U.S.'s current policy and I think that Bush is an idiot for thinking that the War in Iraq was a good idea," and saying, "Bush is an idiot who deserves to be taken out and brutalized and then shot and then dragged through the streets."

If you really believe the latter, then you damn well better have justification for it, in my opinion.

Otherwise, I don't think hyperbole like that does anyone any good.



Opinions?

Comments

[6beforelunch.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I agree with you about discussing celebrities and trying to judge people when you're so far removed from the situation. I actually get slightly uncomfortable in fandom when the topic of conversation veers into actors personal lives. I'll discuss Sam six ways from Sunday, but I know very little about Amanda Tapping, and I'm happy with that. (I know slightly more about Michael Shanks, but that's mainly because I've watched a lot of con videos and he and Lexa are fairly open. Even then, I try not to get too involved in discussions about the actors themselves.)

But on to the actual point of your post...

this isn't the first time I've spoken up and asked people to change their conversation based on what I find offensive...So--would I annoy you?

Probably not. If anything I would fall all over myself apologizing for having made you uncomfortable. *g*

What would you do if you felt a conversation was damaging, hurtful, or wrong?

Depends. I'm pretty chicken when it comes to confronting people. Usually I try to change the topic conversation. If I can't, I just start offering one word answers and nodding politely as they talk and eventually most people clue in that I'm not really into the conversation and move on to something else. If it's a group, and everyone else is into the conversation and I'm not I'll just zone out for a while.

It's all very passive aggressive and non-assertive, I know. I'm working on being more assertive. Really.

[majorsamfan.livejournal.com]

I wished I changed the topic of convo's that gracefully! (and at ALL)

I really don't like the personal attacks on the President or celebrities or anyone suffering that. I spent my childhood with cruel classmates and have had quite enough of it.

I cringe when Bush's verbal gaffs are played over and over. Who said you had to be an excellent speaker to be a leader; certainly not God, who used Moses (the guy with the speech impediment) rather mightily before Egypt's Pharoah and as leader of the Israelites for forty-plus years. (How's that for term limits?) and I'd like to have heard him pronounce some of those Biblical names!

There are a lot of people who are really good at making speeches and not so good at the follow-through. And they're usually the ones pointing fingers at those who are at least making an attempt to do something about a situation.

I used to hang on every word of "Entertainment Tonight", but I grew out of it. Their lives ceased to fascinate me so much when every other story was about drug rehab, DUI arrests and divorces.

What I have very much enjoyed about fandom as an adult is that, with the exception of offering congratulations (or donations to charity) on the occasion of childbirth or birthdays, or, okay, wanting to see pictures of them at public appearances, Stargate fans mostly don't pry into the private lives of the actors. I know on several Yahoo lists, that's forbidden territory.

[pepper-field.livejournal.com]

I think, if I'd been saying something like that, and someone stopped me in the way you did, I'd be embarrassed at myself, rather than annoyed at the other person. It might come out as annoyance at the other person at first, though - because people often don't like having their faults pointed out, and I'm certainly not very good at dealing with criticism. I guess it would depend on how it was said, too, and who said it - if I got that from a friend, I'd be far more likely to take it well than if I got it from family. :) Sad but true.

I certainly don't deal with things I disagree with half as assertively - I hate, hate, hate confrontation. It's a good thing to be, so long as it's assertive and not aggressive, which it sounds like you are. Assertive, I mean - not aggressive!

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

I think it really all depends on the scenario. If I'm uncomfortable listening to a bunch of people talk about how great Bush is (because I believe the opposite), I would never tell them to stop talking because they've the right to their opinion. And as long as we can engage in a discussion that doesn't get personal (like including lines such as "you liberals, you feminists, you conservative freaks"), then I'll stay and talk. Or else I'll just remove myself from the situation.

If I'm uncomfortable because my views are being challenged - I'll stay and listen and ask questions. Or remove myself from the situation. Again, primarily because people should be able to have that conversation with their friends and not have me interfere.

If the conversation is laced with malice, hatred etc - oh yeah. I'll say something. But I've found the best way to handle people who are asking inappropriate questions (why aren't you married yet?) or saying horrific things (Iran has the right on policy for gays) or are just inane is to respond with, "wow". Which is probably passive but I think it expresses one's wonderment at the statement and tosses it back to the person to react.

As for myself, I agree with what Pepper said above on the how it was said and who. But I think I tend to be a bit more...grumpy...on this as I have a lot of older men stop me mid-sentence to dismiss my ideas/thoughts because I'm younger than them and a girl. So I can bristle a bit when I'm stopped in the middle of a conversation. But if it's a friend or someone's whose opinion I respect, I figure they love me and/or respect me in turn so they have a reason for stopping my rant.

(then for the whole Britney thing - I admit to being fascinated by it. Does it consume me? Nope. Did I turn off the TV when CNN would not stop talking about? Oh hell yeah. And slightly relevant, I get *wigged* out by real person fic. For me, it crosses a huge line esp. if its sexual.)

See...I told you I can get all rant-y and wordy....Sorry.

[zats-clear.livejournal.com]

kudos to you for standing up for your personal beliefs. damn shame more don't do it. Congratulations on possessing confidence in yourself.

[ivylore.livejournal.com]

However, I don't believe that we can judge people themselves--especially not based on what publishers with vested interests in the subject try to tell us.

Hm. I wouldn't find that sort of statement confrontational in the least. (Granted, I feel very bad for Spears right now. It's one thing to be amused over the MTV fiaso... but it's another to gloat over the loss of her children. And the fascination with her life is morbid these days.)

Any friendships worth having really need to be founded on honesty and forthrightness and sometimes a frankness of opinion. That's to be expected and we all need to be confident enough to speak up. But I hear your concerns... online conversations are trickier, because all the other social clues (tone, posture, expression) that we use in RL are absent. That being said, I absolutely have that annoying habit of speaking up if something bothers me.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on not knowing about actor's lives. What they choose to reveal? Fine. Things that simply are public knowledge? Fine. The motivations behind their decisions? Don't know it.

If anything I would fall all over myself apologizing for having made you uncomfortable.

My initial reaction to this is to say--"Don't apologize!" But...the only situations I can think of where I would say something are situations where I think the other person has crossed a line. And I don't know that you would cross it in the first place. :-) Very few people do, actually. And that's sort of the point.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's particularly graceful. Mostly it's just really, really uncomfortable.

Their lives ceased to fascinate me so much when every other story was about drug rehab, DUI arrests and divorces.

I think watching programs like that can either make you really glad about your own life, or depress you about humanity in general. Plus, it's pretty crushing when your idols end up on those shows for stupid things.

Yay for behaving in a respectful manner toward people who don't deserve anything less!

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

It might come out as annoyance at the other person at first, though - because people often don't like having their faults pointed out, and I'm certainly not very good at dealing with criticism.

Yeah. Me, too. I'm sure this has happened to me, too--in fact, I know it has. ;-)

I really don't *feel* very assertive--I end up literally shaking from the terror of confronting people, and it takes me several minutes to recover. And then I worry for days whether I stepped over a line myself. But I keep doing it, so...there must be something I get out of it. Even if it's just the fact that I did not, in fact, keep quiet about something I felt was right.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

If I'm uncomfortable listening to a bunch of people talk about how great Bush is (because I believe the opposite), I would never tell them to stop talking because they've the right to their opinion.

Exactly. I have *no* problem with people having wildly differing opinions--just the getting personal part.

If I'm uncomfortable because my views are being challenged - I'll stay and listen and ask questions.

Yes. Same here. These conversations are, to me, fascinating. Often people come up with perspectives that I never thought about before. Like with slash. There are some really good defenses of it out there--defenses that have nothing to do with the canonicity of a character's sexual orientation, and I can respect that. And some people really just find it hot, which I can understand, too. But if you'd asked me a year ago? Maybe not so much. I changed my mind through reading and listening to others' opinions.

It's interesting that you mention your approach to dealing with malice and hatred in other people's questions. I just saw someone who said that a really good response to racism is "playing dumb," in order to 1) show that you don't think something is funny and 2) throw it back to the other person to examine their own prejudices, without confronting them directly. And I love the idea of saying, "Wow," to someone asking about why I'm not married yet. Same idea--and it's brilliant.

I can bristle a bit when I'm stopped in the middle of a conversation.

Hell, yes--I mean, me, too. ;-) But then again, that's different than someone saying, "What you are saying makes me uncomfortable because..."

Poor Britney. I think she's fallen victim to the idea that stars should never change, should never be less than what they were, should never be less than perfect. At the same time, it seems to me like she just keeps coming back for more.

On RPF--I finally figured out that I can only deal with it in certain circumstances, that all seem to work together to distance the actor-character from the actual actor. I've actually written a few cracky stories about people I know, and when I think about that, I can understand that I'm still not writing about the actual person sitting next to me, but rather some sort of idea or caricature. But it's still pretty squicky for me.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

kudos to you for standing up for your personal beliefs. damn shame more don't do it. Congratulations on possessing confidence in yourself.

Like I told pepper--it never *feels* like confidence when I say something. I guess I'm worried about crossing that line from assertive to off-base.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

It's one thing to be amused over the MTV fiaso... but it's another to gloat over the loss of her children.

Well, with the MTV appearance--that was all on her. At least partly. Because what was influencing her on the side? But anyway--yeah. Bad, bad performance.

Online conversations...oh boy. It's so, so easy to get in trouble online. It's pretty easy to get into trouble in person, too, but at least then you can react right away.

I've sometimes wished I were less vocal about some things--mostly things that annoy me, instead of the ones that I really am pretty opinionated about. But that has to do with living with people, and not necessarily confronting them

[majorsamfan.livejournal.com]

Once or twice I got to find out about something good they'd done, like when Mark Harmon came out of his house and helped some schlepp who'd crashed in his driveway. But I just came to realize what a shallow and hollow life some of them lead.

[bulky-monster.livejournal.com]

I think you're absolutely right and it's just fine. I can't really say much more coherently than that. But yeah, it wouldn't offend me, and I think it's really better to stop conversations like that anyway. They're kind of petty and dumb.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

I can't take credit for the "wow" thing- that was all Carolyn Hax - the advice columnist for the Washington Post. (she's syndicated and if not, her chat on Friday's at noon is awesome).

As for RPF - I wouldn't put cracky fic about your friends (which could be fun) in the same group as porn about actors - that is just so..odd to me.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I'll look her up.

And maybe not--but it helps me cope with the concept.

[bulky-monster.livejournal.com]

:)