Cooking, Cartwheels, and My Thoughts on Internalized Misogyny

[holdouttrout]

Last night I made the most delicious pizza I have ever, ever, ever eaten. Garlic olive oil, fresh basil, cheese, and tomatoes, perfectly combined on a homemade crust (my first ever), in an explosion of culinary delight. I had trouble restraining myself from putting another batch of dough together to make more Right. Then.

I think I'm getting this cooking thing!

I've been doing my cartwheels faithfully (for the most part), and today I did one that I could feel was SO much better than the others. Of course, putting all my weight over one wrist is killing it, so I'm going to have to think about either (1) trying my left side, which will be dangerous to everything around me as well as to my own body or (2) something else which hasn't occurred to me yet. Stopping the cartwheels isn't a very good answer, in my opinion.

I've been thinking about female characters and misogyny and hatred of female characters. I'm starting to think that "If you don't like a particular female character, then you're misogynistic" is simplistic and unhelpful.

You guys, I sometimes don't like female characters.



It's true that while I like almost every female character that walks across my screen/page/front lawn, there are some I just can't stand. Sometimes I have good reasons for this, and sometimes I don't.

For instance, I love Kate on Lost, selfish, tough, manipulative, passive, inconsistent as she is. But there's a book I just read where you could argue the female character had those same traits and was no more inconsistent, and I loathed her. I wanted someone to pull her into the big, evil, glass pyramid and cut her heart out.* This is a very atypical reaction from me, because even when I don't LOVE characters, I usually like them alright.

Anyway, I got to thinking about some of the rhetoric I'd seen about Sam Carter, and about how if people didn't like her, then they were WRONG and misogynistic, and probably murdered kittens in their basements.**

Of course, the rhetoric from the other side about how Sam Carter was weak, uninteresting, flawed, inconsistently written, and and and... blonde(!)*** hurt me, because I think that she's awesomesauce and shouldn't everyone?

I have found that I need to be more cautious when decrying someone else's villainy. Maybe that person really was asking an honest question, or maybe they just see a particular action very differently for whatever reason. Maybe they don't understand the argument I'm trying to make because I made it incomprehensibly. Maybe they haven't seen episode thirteen, where My Favorite Female Character Ever takes out a machine gun and kills the bad guys in epic fury! (Or maybe they did and thought it was wildly out of character.)

Maybe they really do have internalized misogyny. I know I do.

I've seen people who denounce internalized misogyny turn around and hate on female characters because they interfered with their ship, or denounce other fans because they didn't love on the right female characters. I've probably done it myself, and for that, I am sorry. (And if you see me do it again, call me on it!)

I don't mean that I am not looking at what people say and thinking "Hmm, I think there's more at work here than just simple dislike." It doesn't mean that I appreciate when people use misogynistic language to try to explain away their dislike or hatred of a female character.

It does mean that it's not a simple female+hate=misogyny equation.

At least for me.

So... I'd like to know what you think.



*To be fair, I wanted every single character in that book to be dragged into the big, evil, glass pyramid and have their hearts cut out. So.

**I never actually saw this argument.

***Or this one.



Oh, crap. I still have to write my Indulgence Fic.

Comments

[sb158.livejournal.com]

Yum. pizza sounds yummy. Cartwheels, not happening. Not in the past 40 yrs., and I was never real good at them, anyway.
The female character thing? Do you like every single male character, either? Nobody likes everybody. And they say that the people with whom you have the most conflict are the ones that exhibit the traits you least like in yourself. Think there's anything to that? And maybe the book just sucked...

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Hee. I am definitely paying for the cartwheels today. *g*

Nobody likes everybody, it's true!

(I can't quite make up my mind about the book. It's possible the characters were just designed in a way that hits every one of my "hate" buttons.)

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

*runs in and steals a slice of pizza*

Where I run into issues with the character hate is when 1) there seems to be an obsession with hatting that specific character (isn't it more fun to focus on what you like?) and 2) even moreso, when reasoning for that hatred is presented using misogynistic language or otherwise pandering to stereotypes and sweeping judgements.

I mean, dude, I have an irrational Very Strong Dislike for Kathryn Janeway from Voyager. Nobody likes all characters. That's fine. It's when there's patterns in the dislike or problematic language defending it, that it becomes a problem.

(I still refrain the right to get annoyed when people diss Sam Carter)

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

It's when there's patterns in the dislike or problematic language defending it, that it becomes a problem.

Yes, that is it in a perfect nutshell.

irrational Very Strong Dislike for Kathryn Janeway from Voyager.

There's nothing irrational about that. Of course, I am also Very Not a Janeway fan, so I may be biased. :)

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid to go back and watch some of my favorite programming from when I was a kid (not that Janeway was an absolute favorite, but I didn't dislike her), for fear that I would end up hating it, based on my current understanding/perspective.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have that same fear, but I look at it as all those shows and characters I loved who may not hold up for me now were important to me at the time.

It's one of the reasons that while I HATE the Twilight phenomenon and the books' totally creepy gender issues, I still get the appeal, because it spoke to my inner 13 year old like crazy.

And again, where it becomes a problem is when you have those patterns and language of reinforcement that systematically normalize those problematic aspects. I find the TwiMoms phenomenon much scarier than the Twilight phenomenon, because all those 13 year old girls who swoon over the problematic tropes in Twilight might outgrow that, except that those problematic tropes are being normalized for them by their mothers within a shared context. And that's where it gets messy.

And the misogyny in media fandom works on similar principles, when that reinforcement of problematic tropes about women characters happens in a shared context that normalizes the assumptions that female characters are Sues, are weak, are not interesting, etc.

Okay. I hope that made sense.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

all those 13 year old girls who swoon over the problematic tropes in Twilight might outgrow that

This is why I'm not terrified of Twilight in general. Because I read tons of crap when I was that age and think I turned out okay. I think. The moms thing is scary, though. And the weird paraphernalia.

The rest makes sense to me, too. It's an overall effect, though, and not an individual one--that is, people disliking a certain character happens for all sorts of reasons, whereas people disliking many female characters is a negative trend. *reads previous sentence and scratches head* Does that make sense at all?

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

There's nothing irrational about that. Of course, I am also Very Not a Janeway fan, so I may be biased. :)

I so always thought I was alone!

I remember when I read about Voyager coming out and that they'd have a female captain being SO EXCITED and then so disappointed whens he rubbed me so wrong. And I loved, loved Torres but after they brought on 7 of 9 she became a background character.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

YES. You are not alone!

Part of it is that Kate Mulgrew didn't do anything for me in the role, and the same with Jeri Ryan - I've had a hard time trying to separate Ryan from her Leverage character because I'm just not fond of the Ryan's style, though she'd grown on my by the end of her Leverage stint, and I now wonder how much of that was that the Leverage writers write great female characters, whereas the Berman/Braga era of Trek was largely full of fail in that area (though Ryan has also definitely improved as an actress since then).

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I'm making more pizza tonight, so if you wanna come over... *g*

I agree--it's the pattern, and the language, that's the problem, but I've felt frustrated a few times with the strong language in the other direction.

Honest critique of characters just makes sense to me--there are a lot of things about *good* characters (male and female) that Aren't Right, too!

[crazedturkey.livejournal.com]

OMG I have an irrational dislike for Kathryn Janeway too. Not because she's a woman. Because she's annoying. And also happens to be a woman. (the woman bit being incidental to the annoyingness).

Also yes. This.

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what abyssinia said. I actually used to be a lot more militant than I am now. I'm sort of coming back from the most extremist side. In Stargate, there was so much internalized misogyny disguised as something else that my first instinct whenever anyone bashed Sam in a horrible way was to assume hatred of female characters first and then work back from there. (And, to be fair to me, it usually did end up in a pattern of hate for female characters) But I'm seeing more sides now and refining my definitions and guidelines.

For one thing, I think disliking another character because they interfere with your OTP, whether slash or het, is a natural thing. Not based on any sort of internal hatred. It's HOW that dislike is expressed and how often people don't own it that irritates me or makes me think there's something else mixed up in it.

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

It's HOW that dislike is expressed and how often people don't own it that irritates me or makes me think there's something else mixed up in it.

Yes this. There are a few characters who I just don't click with but I don't see the need to pontificate on why/how/etc. Waste of energy.

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. If someone says, "Ehh, I just don't like her because she's an obstacle to my OTP getting together." And they're done with it? I'm pretty much fine with that. But when they start making shit up and seemed obsessed with finding each fault of the character and writing whole essays on them?

Yeah...

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Yeah. The thing I find interesting is that someone can be totally irrational about character A, but love a lot of other women characters. So I've had to take a lot of deep breaths.

And yes to this: It's HOW that dislike is expressed and how often people don't own it that irritates me or makes me think there's something else mixed up in it.

[crazedturkey.livejournal.com]

I'm with everyone above.

Not likeing a character is ok. But when it becomes about that character being a woman and then about women in general - I get annoyed. Or when there's a whole pattern. or when they won't own that their opinions not cool.

Erg - others said it better above.

But I must ask is the book you're referring to Threshold? Cos if it is I am SO with you :D

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Well, I remember disliking the characters in Threshold, but this particular book was the Serpent Bride--it's set thousands of years later, and the characters are just... I don't even know how to explain it.

[crazedturkey.livejournal.com]

I don't either but I completely agree. There was a lot of me throwing the book against the wall getting so frustrated with those characters.

From memory she improves in the second. But Maximillian remains somewhat annoying. I have hope for him (but not a great deal).

I can't verbalise what pings me about those books either. Just that they do. Ping me. Lots. (Axis is slightly less of a mysogynist than he was though - good step!)

[vickyocean.livejournal.com]

Man, you just made me really hungry. I've just been sitting here thinking what kinda crap I can scrape out of my cabinets for lunch so I don't have to go out. That pizza sounds really good. Yummo!

Oh, there have been some female characters that I have loathed, but so many that I have loved. I think there's an important distinction between disliking a character because they're getting in the way of your OTP and disliking a character because of their personality and/or actions. After all we don't like everyone we come into contact with in real life, so why should that be any different in fiction.

I have had the experience of disliking a character and coming to love them over time as they've evolved. And also the opposite experience.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't mind disliking a character because of OTP interference as long as people aren't... awful about it. But yeah. And characters have changed my dislike to like--I even had a sliver of a moment oin this last book I read where I thought I'd end up liking the character after all. It didn't last long, but it happened!

(and the pizza was fantastic.)