Being a Woman Online

[holdouttrout]

Is it really any better than being a woman in the "real world?" I just read--or re-read, perhaps, as some of this sounded familiar, a paper on gender equality online by Susan C. Herring: Gender and Power in Online Communication.

Written in 2001, it's probably not news to most of us. Still, it's discouraging to note that all the problems she points out--women being stereotyped away from male-dominated sites, or girls portraying themselves in highly sexualized ways, or women receiving abuse from men--are either still around or have even been augmented in the seven years since she wrote the article.



I find it hard to articulate to some people just what the problem is with gender inequality. Why does it bug me so much when I hear a story about a woman who doesn't make as much as a man in the same job? Why is it such a big deal that there are hundred of "gag gifts" that use women's body parts as the whole joke? Why does it make me so angry when someone dismisses my opinions and feelings about something--even if it's something small? Even if I know I'm WRONG?

Each little incident seems small, unimportant, not worth getting worked up over. I just wish I could open people's eyes when they ask me that question. Then they'd see everything I see, put the pieces together. They'd know what it's like to break out into a sweat when I am walking alone and a man is walking toward me, or passes me in a car and yells at me, or pushes me against the wall in junior high to try to take something from me.

And they'd know that, even online, where I've created a space for myself, I am subject daily to ads that depict nearly-naked women, to seeing blatantly sexual and/or violent comments directed at other women, if not myself, that my opinion is not valued if it is known that I am a woman, unless I am in a female-dominated space, that I am subjected to an appallingly large number of shades of pink, that I know that at any moment, by saying the wrong thing and attracting the wrong kind of attention, I risk people coming to my "safe space" and making it unsafe--both for me and the people who, for whatever reason, like hanging out in that space.

For all that I have great hope for the future, especially knowing awesome people like you guys, I have to admit that I'm also a great skeptic.

I guess my question is--are things really better? Have the attitudes changed at all, or is it just that we've forced them into other terminology, covered them up? When a profession that was male-dominated now gets lower status because it's become associated with the feminine, is that a step forward or merely to the side?

Comments

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

My opinion is that society generally realizes sexism is bad, and thus the government has taken care of the legal side of external sexism. In other words, most people agree on the surface that women are and should be equal, and they're in favor of laws that allow us to force the issue.

However, the basic message that's been built into our society still tells us that women are less than men. Not only do men still routinely show this in blatant and less blatant ways, but women themselves still pass on the internalized sexism that was ground into them while they grew up.

While we grew up. And THAT will be much, much, much slower to change. I mean, I try to be upbeat, but once you see it you can't un-see it, you know? And it's still an insult to call someone a 'woman' or a 'girl', especially to call a man by those terms. It's still a compliment to assign male attributes to women, and there's plenty of women online who grasp onto that and promote themselves that way.

I have to admit, I've been discouraged over the past few years even at the same time I've been so full of wonder at being in a female part of fandom. It's wonderful, but it illustrates fully what happens to women over their life-times. It really mirrors society, and I get very disappointed when women cannot let other women be whomever they wish to be. The treatment of female characters, other fans, the idolization of the male characters over the female. It's just... so disheartening.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Yes! It's the subtle, internal, hidden biases against women that are the worst--similar to the subtle, internal, hidden racism that gets handwaved because "people don't mean to say that." Or "She didn't mean it that way!"

Regardless, when people say that they loathe a female character, I always have to wonder if they would like a character who was exactly the same, only male.

One of the things I love about fandom, especially this fandom, especially this group of this fandom, is that I've come to think more critically about what people are saying, both in the show and about the show. How is the message of equality being undercut? Where is it succeeding? Just because a female character doesn't kick butt, does that mean she's not a good character? Just because she *does*, does that make her a good one?

(Also: I'm listening to the podfic of Blue Jello Metaphor, which applies quite directly to this conversation in some ways.)

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

Oh hell, there's a perfect example in the SG fandom. Rodney McKay and Sam Carter. They're very similar character-wise, except Rodney actually HAS all those horrible traits that SG people assign to Sam: ego, taking credit from others, snottiness and being very unrealistic and super-intelligent. And yet... he's one half of the biggest pairing in the SGA fandom. He gets a pass where Sam doesn't.

In as much as Joe Mallozzi can bug people sometimes, this is one thing he's called whining fans on again and again, and it's way, way too true.

Well, and regards to internalized sexism, the fact is that most women don't really realize how much it affects them. So they really might not mean it 'that way', but it's still sexism all the same. It affects us all, regardless of whether you see it or not, you know? Even if a woman thinks she was raised in a completely un-sexist place, she wasn't. Not if she was part of society and interacted with the world at all. It's impossible.

And I guess I wish more women did some study and learned about these things, because just like racism sexism tends to be viewed as very black and white. With no shades of gray. And that's unrealistic. Most women probably do not consider themselves sexist, but they aren't even aware of the shit they've internalized. Maybe they don't want to know. But all those passionate feelings about other women and female characters don't come from nowhere. And it doesn't make someone evil. Unless they're aware of what they're doing and keep on doing it.

I guess it's the nature of man and woman to not look inside too deeply. Because they might have to change something about themselves and that's hard and irritating.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, Rodney and Sam. See, I love Rodney, because he's pure ego, narcissistic, and rude. I don't like him in the same WAY as Sam--I didn't fall in love with the character, but I LOVED the brilliant sharp edge of his character. I loved to hate him, to use a cliche.

I don't get how people honestly say that Sam has those characteristics--unless they really mistake confidence in a woman for arrogance. In which case, I think I'll be over here, screaming.

Right--it's the same with racism. You may honestly not mean something "that way," but that doesn't change the actual meaning of what you said, or the way that people perceive it. There are plenty of times a racists thing was pointed out to me, and I was genuinely naive about what it mean. Doesn't mean it wasn't racist.

I do honestly believe that people can dislike a character without it having to do with sexism or racism. BUT! I think that you're right that people sometimes don't realize their own motives. And if someone has a pattern of not liking a certain type of character, then maybe they should take a closer look to find out why.

Liking and disliking isn't necessaily rational, but it doesn't have to be blind, either.

[syxp.livejournal.com]

I'm just using your post to rant about something because it fits and I have a hard time explaining to people exactly why it bothers me.

Rant:

We have a brazillian drive-up espresso stands out here and the latest fad of having the girls in bikinis or pasties finally came to the one we actually stop at.
I can't stand the whole concept. The bikinis/pasties aren't the issue, I would have no problem with these girls walking down the street in nothing if that's what they wanted to wear. I'm not a nakededity hater or anything.
It just makes me really...sad, I guess that this works. Once a bikini barista place moves in, the others just about have to convert to stay in business.
WTF
Really? Do we need half naked women serving coffee? How about putting them in the checkouts at Home Depot?

How do I explain crap like that to my daughter? That her breasts will one day be her biggest asset? ARGH

Okay.
Thanks. I'm still not sure I summed up what bothers me but I feel better. :P

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Wait, seriously? I did not know about this trend. That is one of the most offensive things I've ever heard--coffee places are not supposed to be strip clubs. Don't we already have places for men to ogle women's bodies?

It's the idea of selling their bodies, I think, rather than the nudity.

(Also, I've long been bothered by the fundraising car washes that occur around this time of year. I don't think it's *supposed* to seem this way, but I can't help but think that they put cute, young girls wearing shorts and shirts that are little better than bikini tops on the side of the road. Maybe that's just me reading too much into it...After all, I don't think it's really a new practice.)

[pcrackenhead.livejournal.com]

Sadly, this trend is alive, and closer to us than you may know...

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Dumb. Really, really dumb.

[syxp.livejournal.com]

lol, yes, it's a big thing out here in Washington.

I don't know if the whole 'selling their bodies' thing is what bothers me because they're not really, not in the same sense as a prostitute or something. So, men (mostly) are going out of their way to stop at these places just to see some young girls mostly naked. Objectification much?

Don't these men have anything better to do?

And the car wash girls...rah.
The sad part about that is that most of those girls are in High School or Middle school trying to raise money for dance clubs or something. Who the hell comes up with these ideas?

"Hey, lets parade our pre-teen children out on the corner half-naked so we can raise some money!"

"Great idea, Bob!"

ARRRGGGHHHH

[terranlily.livejournal.com]

Down here in Florida, a few months ago, a young high school teacher was discovered to be "moonlighting" with a particular charter fishing operation, where she was being paid as a deck hand on the boat - her only job requirement was to look "hot in a bikini."
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasurecoast/content/tcoast/epaper/2008/04/29/0429fishingteacher.html

There is a bit of debate as to why she lost her job, but whatever the reason - thank goodness she did. But it's only a drop in the bucket toward combating the continual bombardment of children with sexualized images of our supposed "role models."

It is both heartbreaking and infuriating that supposedly educated women (not just teachers, but in any field) actually will dress and behave to objectify themselves rationalizing that it gives them power over men.

My husband teaches a college class in Victimology where this topic comes up. He is constantly amazed that even after the lecture and some healthy discussion, young women still come to class wearing low-cut belly shirts and thin little shorts with "Sweet Stuff" printed across the seat. In creating this course, he saw part of his mission as teaching students how not to become victims (not just crime, but financially, socially, sexually, etc.) But really, it's hard to save people from themselves...

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is knowing that they do have power over men in a certain way--just not they way they necessarily think they do. And they don't realize all the power that they're giving up by doing that.

I don't know what the solution is--our entire society is geared toward keeping people from asking questions about their own power.

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

I talked to a couple of people--one is a mother and the other was a dance team girl, and they both said they think the car-wash girls know exactly what they're doing and what they're getting into. I can't help but think they don't really know.

And why are the moms okay with that? Do they not understand what's going on? Or do they just not see the harm? Am I blowing it way out of proportion?